TRANSCRIPT
Conscious Leadership: Andy Shallal on the Courage to Scale a Business, Learn From Mistakes, and Change Your Mind
SEASON 1 · EPISODE 5
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Welcome to the #BeTheBossNow Podcast and I am your host Gregory Allan Datu Cendana, President and Co-Founder of Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting, Chief Creative Officer of Greg Dances and #1 International Best Selling Author of Be the Boss Now Book: 15 Key Steps to Start, Run, and Grow Your Own Business.
So often, people don’t take risks because they are afraid of failure or rejection.
As an openly gay, Filipino American who was raised in a working class, immigrant, and Catholic household, these experiences shaped my values and the entrepreneur and leader I have become and led me to found and run different companies and nonprofits. I’ve also built a business that grew during the pandemic while creating opportunities and increasing access for people from diverse backgrounds.
The #BeTheBossNow podcast will lift up the stories of different folks who identify as Black, Indigenous, Latinx, Asian, Middle Eastern, woman, queer, people with disabilities, and those living at the intersections of multiple of these identities.
I believe there is a boss in ALL of us - especially for those of us who have historically lacked representation in leadership. Furthermore, when we embrace fear and failure as inspiration to guide us on our journeys, it will be for the better and in service to making our biggest, boldest and most audacious dreams a reality.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Anas Andy Shallal is an artist and social entrepreneur. He is the founder and CEO of Busboys and Poets, a group of restaurants in the Washington Metropolitan area where art, culture, and politics intentionally collide over mindfully sourced, food, drinks, and programming that feeds the mind, body and soul.
With nine locations in and around D.C., including the latest locations and Anacostia and Columbia, Maryland, Busboys and Poets has become home for progressives, artists, and intellectuals, including such notables as the late Howard Zinn, Cornell West, Alice Walker, and Nikki Giovanni, to name a few. Busboys and Poets is a member of the Restaurant Opportunities Center, or R.O.C., focusing on the system on sustainable business and employment practices.
Busboys and Poets has also been at the forefront in environmental stewardship, being one of the first businesses in Washington, D.C. to be 100% wind-powered, and are at the cutting edge of the local and sustainable food movement, winning many awards and recognitions locally and nationally for its innovative conscious cuisine.
Shallal has received numerous awards, including the Mayor's Art award, Employee of the Year from the Employment Justice Center, the Mayor's Environmental Award, Washingtonian of the year from Washingtonian magazine, and the D.C. Hall of fame, among others. More recently, he was tapped to be a member of the ReOpen D.C. Task Force during the coronavirus pandemic. Shallal has founded and co-founded several peace and justice organizations and holds leadership positions in numerous others. He's on the board of trustees for the Institute for Policy Studies, the Anacostia Coordinating Council, the Anacostia Park Foundation, the D.C. Fiscal Policy Institute, and a founding member of Think Local First D.C., a local business association.
He has also served in advisory and leadership roles to advance progressive business and labor practices, including recently chairing the Workforce and Investment Council of D.C.. During the COVID-19 lockdown, Shallal initiated a "Paint the Storefronts" effort, where he hired artists to paint shuttered storefronts with inspirational and uplifting messages.
This initiative quickly went viral, spreading to communities around the U.S. And the world. He holds an MBA from the Smith School of Business at the University of Maryland, College Park. And Shallal continues to strive to make his hometown of Washington D.C. a more livable community.
Thank you, salamat, gracias, Andy Shallal for being a guest on the Be the Boss Now Podcast. I am personally grateful for your continued and ongoing leadership here in Washington, D.C., or Piscataway land, um, and across the country and globe. Um, on this podcast, we hope to inspire others with stories from entrepreneurs like yourself, to understand that they have the agency and the freedom to decide what a boss means for them, to live their wildest dreams, and to make change in their communities. So to get us started, my first question to you, Andy, is what does it mean to you to be a boss?
Anas Andy Shallal: You know, I, I've never seen myself as a boss. I don't, I don't like the term. I think, you know, being, being a boss sounds as, you know, we always talk about like, "stop being bossy." You know, like that is not supposed to be a positive thing to be a boss.
Um, I'd like to think of it as more in terms of being a leader, uh, as a coach, a mentor, someone who really, um, is not only looking after for their own interests, but looking at themselves as part of an ecosystem of, uh, others who are involved in the, uh, outcomes that they're looking to be able to achieve. So I don't see myself as a... I think, I think "boss" sounds really lonely.
Uh, you know, I think I like to think of it more in terms of leadership, mentorship, you know, sometimes managing, you know, it just, you, you kind of like find the space that you need to fill and you're there. So that makes you, that makes you a boss, I guess, in some way.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Got it. No, I, I appreciate that. And honestly, that was one of the things that I was considering when thinking about the book and the podcast was, um, you know, even as I grew up in the movement as a labor and union organizer.
And so even in that context, there's probably different ideas or concepts of "boss." And so my hope is to kind of flip the, flip the idea or concept of what a boss means. Um, and, um, to, to kind of show people that, you know, there are ways to be leaders, ways to help empower people in communities. Um, and to, I guess, redefine what it means to be a boss.
So maybe my hope is that we could think about what that looks like and continue to, to challenge this notion of "boss." And how could it be a positive, uplifting and empowering thing where we're, where we're actually having confidence, love ourselves, but also support and, and build up other people. Cause that's, I think that for me is part of it, which I think is connected to your idea and concept of leadership as well.
Anas Andy Shallal: Yeah. I think when you think of a boss, you think of somebody that's un... unreachable, someone that you can not really, uh, have a connection with directly. And we often see them as being infallible. Like they are the be all and end all, whatever they say and do, it must be right. It must be the thing. And I think it prevents you from recognizing that, you know, part of, I think being, I guess there's a good boss and there's a bad boss. But a part of, uh, the way I see, I see boss as someone who is able to be vulnerable, someone is able to make mistakes.
Someone is able to listen to others, uh, learn from others. Um, you know, so I think that's sometimes is not your idea of a traditional boss. You think of the traditional boss, like a person who like strong and they, and they, and any kind of adverse situation, is able to stand up for things all the time and all that. And that really becomes exhausting.
I think at some level, uh, even people who are in leadership roles want to be able to say, "You know what, I'm not good at this. I, I need somebody else to help me out with this. Uh, cause I know that I've seen how you do it better than I do," and so on. So it's okay to be able to take steps back, steps forward so that you're not always being at the, uh, at the very, uh, you know, uh, like the head of the spear, you know, you can also take turns moving about.
And I think being a boss kind of limits you. You know, that idea of "boss," uh, oftentimes that we have in our heads, is an idea that limits our ability to, um, be able to allow ourselves to move in spaces and places that may not be as comfortable, uh, to us otherwise.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Absolutely, yeah. Part of what I'm hearing you say, Andy, is like...
You know, at least, um, and in, in our redefinition of "boss" and this idea of what a, uh, uh, uh, ideal boss could be, is there's a certain level of vulnerability. And I think I'm also hearing like a certain level of humility. Like there is things that you could learn. There are things that people are helping support you and helping lift you and build, like lift you up and, and create space for us to be able to even exist to be who we are, but then to also like live out these dreams and ideas.
Um, and I truly appreciate that. And honestly, as I even think about my experience at like, at your different Busboys and Poets, um, and as I'm, I, as I was reading more to learn more about your vision, I feel like, for me it, and it, uh, anyways, that represents like this courage to be undefinable, like to refuse to be boxed in, to have a safe place for like care and community and, and education on like a variety of topics.
And so I would love to ask you just more about kind of this arc of, uh, that you've been on with Busboys and Poets. When, um, when you were looking for investors or other folks to buy into the concept, like, what was your strategy to get the support and the yeses? And, um, what kind of opposition did you face, if any? And how did you stay motivated, um, throughout the process?
Anas Andy Shallal: Well, it's interesting when I first started, um, the idea of Busboys and Poets, it was an idea that was brewing in my head for many years, of course. You know, I, um, I love bookstores. I love bars. I love, uh, gathering spaces. I love poetry. I love all -- food, of course. All of these things I really enjoyed. They were part of, uh, for me, that's a fulfilling experience when you can have these experiences into your life on a regular basis.
And I thought maybe combining them into one place might be really interesting. But what made it really difficult is when you're presenting this as a business model to a, an investor or to a bank to try to get a loan... um, it's not always easy to articulate. And oftentimes it feels like it's taking on too much, and it feels a little bit like, um, it feels a little chaotic.
And so, you know, and all of these elements in and of themselves -- with the exception of restaurants and bars -- um, don't really make money. I mean, bookstores are money losers. Everybody knows that. Uh, I don't know many people who have made money in poetry. Uh, I don't think that's a thing. Um, gathering places where you sitting around for hours and drinking coffee and, and using up wifi and space isn't definitely a moneymaker. So when you present all these things to an investor, they're thinking, "Well, you're losing so much. What if everybody comes and just sits on their laptops and just drinks water? Uh, you know, how are we going to pay the bill at the end of the month?" And so, you know, it takes a little bit of, uh, vision, I think, to understand that's not how it operates. That people come and, you know, food is something that everyone, everyone needs to have.
And, you know, there are -- restaurants do well generally, uh, that are well-managed and the food is good. Um, you know, uh, bars do well. Uh, so on. So... But what happened is when you combine all of these things, you create this synergy that actually, uh, is a multiplier of all these things. So somebody can come for poetry one day and be able to have a drink. And the person could come for a drink, and end up enjoying a book, uh, buying a book. Somebody could come and meet somebody, and so on. And you can have people spend it all day. Rather than coming in one place, having coffee, then going somewhere else to have dinner, they may have coffee in your place, and then, "Oh, it's dinner time and I'm meeting a friend... why don't we meet him right here?" You know? And their friend shows up and they have dinner together. Then they stay for poetry afterwards. We've had people stay for hours, literally, uh, you know, from lunch to dinner, to drinks, to whatever. So I think, I think all of that was presented to folks and, uh, many, like I said, many investors didn't really understand it or didn't want to take the risk.
Uh, but, um, I, then I went to Industrial Bank, which is one of the banks here in D.C. on New Street. Uh, it's a Black-owned, Black-operated bank. And they, um, were willing to take a risk on me. So I gave them the idea. They said, "Okay, let's make this work." Um, you know, I, I wasn't familiar with pro formas. I wasn't familiar with business plans.
You know, my idea was I knew how to, how to run a restaurant. And I didn't know all the other elements of it. That was, uh, not something that I needed to know, you know. For many mom-and-pop operations, you know, you don't need to have a pro forma. You just know that you're going to need to bring in more money than you are going to spend.
And that's really the bottom line for you, right? So, you know, and, and, uh, they work. You know, you don't have to have big, um, you know, Excel sheets and, and, uh, the huge, you know, decks to be able to make it. You know, and so, excuse me... [sneezes]. Whoa, sorry.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Bless you.
Anas Andy Shallal: Um, so anyway, um, I think with, with, um, with, with all of that, I was able to finally get the money that I needed. And then once, once things started rolling, and things started to actually come to fruition... and, um, the vision that I had actually was far exceeded, uh, by the reality. And I thought, "Wow, this is like better than I thought it would be."
And, uh, once they got to that point, uh, it was easy for, um, investors and banks to come at me and say, uh, you know, "We want to bring you here. We want to bring it here," uh, to be able to do Busboys and Poets at different locations. So I didn't even have to ask. They were, they were knocking down my door. Uh, to be able to come and make me do -- and they still do.
You know, I still have many investors and many folks that really want to have Busboys and Poets in their area. But, um, and I, you know, try to be as careful as possible to make sure that the people that are here, people that have been here for a long time-- I'm not putting their careers and their, um, you know, the amount of time they spent here at risk.
I want to make sure that they are successful as well. Once I start weaning myself out of the, uh, business.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Got it. I appreciate you kind of telling that full story around what it took, what it took. I'm curious, before, so before the Industrial Bank, you know, were willing to take that chance on you, how did you stay motivated?
Um, and, and how do you, how do you continue to stay motivated -- I feel like there's -- as you grow and as you've been able to scale up?
Anas Andy Shallal: Well, I think, I think the, the key of, uh, of success in my opinion, is being able to withstand the failures. Um, a lot of times people see failures as a dead end, as a way to like, um, make a U-turn and go back to where you started.
But, uh, oftentimes, you know, failures are lessons, uh, and you have to really use them as such. Um, if you don't, then it is obviously they're going to knock you down and you're not going to be able to get it up again. But if you, um, use failures as opportunities or, uh, look for ways to, uh, re-navigate or reassess where you are, uh, without losing sight at the, at the, uh, your, your, your end goals.
Uh, I think you can do actually-- you can stay motivated. Um, I don't mind failures at all. I think, you know, a failure at the beginning is, is, is a punch in the gut a little bit, you know, sorta like throws you off. But then it gives you this chance to just like, take a breather. And rather than be running, running, running all the time, sometimes somebody has to say like, just stop.
And, and that -- those are to me, sometimes are considered failures, but to me they're considered really like the rest stops. Um, ways to to fortify, realign, reassess, and then maybe move forward either in the same direction with a different toolbox or maybe even change directions slightly to get to your end destination.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: I appreciate that. I, that's one thing that I've actually been reflecting a lot about, um, especially through this podcast, is around how I feel like many people don't take risks because of the... that, that, that fear of failure or rejection. Um, and similarly to you, I've... I try to take it as my biggest lessons.
I actually feel like in many cases, it's actually allowed me to, to have a strengthened sense of myself and more confidence in who I am and my goals and visions for, for the world. Um, can you maybe share with us, uh, an example or a time when that failure -- or what one of those lessons were -- uh, what lessons were as... as you've been on this journey?
Anas Andy Shallal: Yeah. There there's been many. Uh, I mean, uh, one, one example, let's say -- it's a simple example. And I'll give you a couple of examples. One example was: at one point we decided that we don't want to have any hierarchy in our organization. Everybody was going to be responsible for what they do. Uh, you know, we, we tried it. It ended up to be just a terrible decision, um, that I initiated, put a lot of effort behind.
And then I decided, you know what? I think this is not working. We have to, we have to pivot back, uh, and try to figure out, because people need structure. And I haven't figured out a way to work with such a chaotic environment with very little structure. Maybe in some environments that could work, but I haven't figured it out.
And if somebody knows how to do this better, I'd love to hear from them. Um, I, I don't like hierarchy too much. Uh, I like the idea of being able to have, have the, uh, my dishwasher tell me what's going on. As opposed to having to have them tell the next in command, the next in command, next in command, then it goes to the manager,
then, then the VP, then that person comes to me and says, "By the way, this is what we need." You know, if we need soap, we need soap today. Not when we go through the chain of command to get it. That's just a simple, silly example. But, uh, but, but other examples where, like, for instance, I had a, I had a restaurant called Eatonville, uh, here for many years and it did really, really well.
And then at some point, you know, uh, business was not doing as well. And I didn't know whether I wanted to really put more oomph behind it, or whether to abandon it. And, um, because my lease was when it was coming to an end, and I had to make a decision whether to renew the lease or not. Well, the landlord raised the rent quite high.
And so I had to really make a, a serious decision whether this was worthwhile to continue. So before then I had this idea of doing this other, uh, hybrid restaurant, called "Mulebone," and I thought it was a great idea. I thought it was the most amazing idea ever. Uh, and, uh, it ended up to be a really terrible idea.
Uh, I hired a chef, uh, who, uh, you know, was more concerned about being in the spotlight than being in the kitchen. And, uh, it made it really, really hard for us to have the consistency of the product, to be able to really live through the concepts. Sometimes there are concepts that, um, maybe are not... Maybe part of the problem is the concept isn't so well-articulated.
And therefore it's in my head and I hired someone that says, "Now I need you to do this, and this, and this." And they may have a whole different agenda, but they only hear what they want to hear. But it doesn't really fit into the vision that I'm looking for, that I think would be successful. So I think sometimes I make decisions a little too quickly, um, without, um, without necessarily vetting my ideas with others.
Um, that's been one of my, I think, um, um, leadership, um, qualities that I want to be able to improve on. Um, working with a lot of really smart people and not allowing them to use their smarts in the fullest of way is just a stupid idea. Um, so I'm really trying very hard to, um, allow space, uh, for people that have different ideas than I have.
And without, without losing, you know, sight of, of making sure that those folks that are, um, taking the company in a different direction, let's say, you know, have to understand the, what the vision of the organization is. Um, and I'm not opposed to taking it any direction people think it should go, but I don't want to lose the vision.
Um, and that's a really tough thing for somebody who's a founder, uh, to let go of... is how do you trust people to maintain the vision that you started with, um, without stifling them from expressing themselves with ideas that you don't have? Cause you're just one person and you're limited. So that that's been a really tough balancing act for me.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Much appreciation for just the vulnerability.
I feel like you shared multiple examples and multiple, multiple lessons that I feel like even myself as a founder, I'm navigating, as I'm, as I'm trying to grow my consulting business. And I'm hearing other folks kind of similarly figuring out how to find that balance. Is there any advice that you would offer folks in terms of, how do you find that balance of, you know, of course you had a vision, an idea, but also as you bring in others and more people to help support you in that, how do you -- how have you found the balance? Or how, what are, what is some advice that you could offer to other founders or other folks who are trying to build their businesses when they're coming across this, um, as well?
Anas Andy Shallal: Well, I, I, I, I never listened too much to people from the outside. I always listened to people on the inside at first. Uh, so I think people that have been here that already get it, people that I feel like they have, uh, carried the, uh, brand, uh, in a way that I felt good about, um, I trust and I'm willing to hear their ideas because I see that they know what the vision is, before they even start with the, with the thought process.
Um, people that come from outside oftentimes don't work out as well. Because they come with their own preconceived ideas of who we are and how we got there. And therefore it, it, um, it becomes too disruptive. Um, so it's, it's trust and verify, I guess, is the best approach that you can go with is, you know, allow people to take on smaller projects, smaller ideas, and watch how they see those ideas grow and how they change. And then sit down and parse them out with them too, so that they understand what is it about what happened worked, and what is it about what happened didn't work.
And then you can come to a clear understanding of what you both want. And making sure that that vision is aligned, uh, before you begin to take on larger responsibilities and larger projects and changes. Um, for instance, let's say we decide that we want to go national, you know, open places all over the country.
Well, that's, that's a great idea, but that, you know, just want to make sure that how do you maintain the vision if you're, you know, a thousand miles away? You know, who's going to, uh, be overseeing that? Uh, what kind of manuals and understanding and, uh, uh, systems do we have in place to ensure that those, uh, ideas, that vision is carried on and maintained, and the impact if it doesn't? And uh, you know, so on and so on. So, so that, you know, I would have to... I would have to be there to question anybody's idea, uh, before I allow it. If somebody says, "Let's go national," I don't say, "Okay, let's go for it." You know, I'll say like, "Tell me more. Explain to me, what do you have in mind? How would that..."
And I'll start... you know, putting "What If" situations at them, to try to figure out how to make it really work. And then we'd come up with some kind of maybe hybrid idea. Let's go, you know, a hundred miles away first, and figure out if that works. And then go further beyond that once we have established a system for that place, and so on.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Yeah. That makes sense to me. And I'm, I'm also hearing, like, in addition, as a part of your way of building that trust is, you know, um, through relationship-building, these pilots, or maybe like, uh, pieces or elements of some of the vision or ideas that they may have to offer. And, um, and I think, uh, what I'm also hearing is, yeah, there's kind of ongoing communication and kind of a ability to kind of - once there's that trust, and once you've kind of maybe have seen some of their ideas put into action or implemented, that you're able to also engage in kind of back-and-forth communication and conversation around well, um, -- and offer either scenarios or offer kind of, uh, ways to kind of push and kind of get, get a better understanding.
And, um, so I think that's definitely helpful and something that I'll take, in terms of how to continue to, one, get that support, but also, still ensure that there's a -- that it's still in line with that, that broader vision and long-term goals.
Anas Andy Shallal: Exactly.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: You know, and to kind of build on that last part of what you were sharing, just around... even the idea of scale.
Um, one thing that I, um, appreciate about what you've been able to do is you've actually created, you know, and built brick-and-mortars, actual physical spaces for folks to convene and come together. Um, what, um, can you share a little bit more about how did you know like that, like that moment was the right time? And, as you've grown -- cause I, I've now been to multiple of your locations -- like, how did you decide which location like, like which locations were places you did want to go, or places that you were willing to kind of put the investment in time and energy into making come to fruition?
Anas Andy Shallal: Um, you know, I think a lot of the pull has been by the developers. So, uh, you know, my business model requires a huge investment on the part of the developer.
And so, um, if a developer does not approach me, I don't normally approach them. Because that makes it a much harder sell, you know. I want them to really want me, and I want them to be able to put their money where their mouth is. And so I demand from them to provide for me personally, uh, practically a turnkey operation. Uh, you know, I pay the rent,
I pay it on time, and I make sure that we have a run -- that we run a good operation, that enhances their development. Um, and I think a lot of developers, uh, look for Busboys and Poets for that reason. They're looking for a place that's going to help them either, uh, lease more units or, uh, lease more apartments, or whatever it is that
they're -- that they're trying to sell and use Busboys and Poets as a loss leader in a way. Um, by bringing us in as a, uh, an example of a fun place to hang out and be around. And many, many communities, you know, uh, have asked to have Busboys and Poets there because many communities love to have a bookstore, love to have a gathering place, love to have a place where there's performances, and poetry, and book talks and, uh, conversations on difficult topics in their community.
Uh, so I think it's been a fairly easy sell in that sense. Uh, we've had some success in other markets and other developers have seen that. You know, places that we go to tend to really appreciate our presence there. And it does add value to that development. So, so I think, you know, sometimes yes, so, so that is my first interest, is making sure that the landlord or the developer is very much motivated, wants us.
Number two, I like to go into communities that are diverse. Communities that have a good base of folks from different backgrounds, different interests, different socioeconomic backgrounds, and so on... races, for sure. Um, and then, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's hard after that because it's, um, it's -- a lot of it's intuitive.
And, um, that, you know, that's why I think I've stayed close at home because I've been here for all my life practically. And I know this area, like the back of my hands. So I'm able to say, if somebody says, "Do you want to open in this neighborhood?" I might say, "Well, I'm not sure," you know. Or, "It's too close to my other place, and it's going to be the same, uh, the same base that we're going to be pulling for." And so on.
So I think part of it is distance from other locations because you don't want to oversaturate, uh, and, uh, cannibalize yourself. Part of it is making sure the demographics are a good fit. Part of it is making sure that the landlord is motivated and has the financial interest and backing for the project.
You know, um, those are just some of the elements that, uh, I take into account.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, thank you for that. Um, and, um, I appreciate it, cause it sounds like you have... you know, a set of criteria or at least kinds of things that you think about.
And there's even something about instinct and intuition and even trusting your gut and self in knowing -- and some of that is harder to articulate sometimes. So I appreciate you just naming that. Because I feel like that's something for me too, that I've been trying to own more is like, okay, there's, you know, it may not specifically fit nicely into a category or into a particular question--
Anas Andy Shallal: Right, right, right!
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: ...but you can just feel something and sense something. So I'm trying to open myself up to say, how do I feel that and own that more?
Anas Andy Shallal: Right, right.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, because usually it's, it's right or there's... it's usually, it usually is trying to tell me something. And so I'm trying to tap into that a little bit more.
Anas Andy Shallal: I think it's really important to tap into that because then it helps you to make decisions in the longterm. You know, uh, instead of when you, when, when, when your gut tells you, "This isn't right," you shouldn't do it. But at the same time, you should also be able to go back and analyze what was it about it that wasn't right?
This way you don't have to always be relying on intuition, because intuition is useful when you're a smaller operator. When you become bigger, intuition becomes, um, harder to tap into. Or, when you go into markets that you're not familiar with, it's harder to tap into. So you want to be able to have some kind of criteria that you can actually articulate.
Not just this idea is, "Oh, it doesn't feel right." Um, but really, uh, articulate what is the feeling about it that you don't like, and this way you can actually hone in on projects and ideas that fit what you're looking for more quickly.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Absolutely, absolutely.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: We appreciate you tuning into the #BeTheBossNow Podcast and will be back after this short break. If you find the conversations with these entrepreneurs inspiring and want to buy a book that offers a more practical framework for realizing your business potential–I invite you to visit BeTheBossNow.com to purchase your copy of #BeTheBossNow Book. Honestly, as I shared with my therapist in a conversation that inspired me to write my first book, this was the guide I wish I had when I first started my company, especially as someone with no inheritance or previous business experience. The book became a #1 bestseller on Amazon in the One-Hour Business and Money Short Reads and Corporate Finance categories and has been featured in classrooms, nonprofits, government agencies, and corporate offices.
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Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, my next question for you, Andy, is: what is something that you believed to be true, but, um, you've changed your mind about, um, after opening multiple and, um, new locations?
Anas Andy Shallal: Um, I used to believe, I used to believe that, um, the role of the leader in that operation at that location -- which we call the general manager -- is not as significant... as we've been led to believe. That actually, you know, if you put the systems in place and you put things that work, then, um, you could... practically kind of put anybody in that spot and they can make it work.
Um, and the, the better your systems are, the more likely you are to have a successful operation. I have come to believe that rather -- that, rather, that the person at the top makes enormous difference and they are the ones that really no matter how good your systems are, no matter how well things are in place, if you don't have the right leader at the helm, uh, you don't really end up with something that, um, you think -- that you want to have.
Um, and I think, you know, it's interesting cause you can oftentimes tell who the leader is in that space, by how you are treated by the host at the front door. Um, or, uh, or a server, for that matter. But the host, definitely, cause that's the first, your first encounter. So oftentimes the host will tell me who the leader in that space is.
And if I walk in, I see a welcoming, open, friendly host, I'll assume that that leader is, is very, very good. And one that's able to exude that sense of, uh, hospitality that I'd like to see have. Uh, if that person is, is just is just about the mechanics of seating you, then I know that that leader is really just a mechanic. And not someone that I feel, uh, can take people to a different level, be able to mentor them, be able to be a coach, uh, for others.
Um, you know, that's, that may be like the, the bad version of a boss. Uh, you know, uh, they are too, they are too wound up at the fact that they're in charge to care about others. And, um, oftentimes it shows by the behavior of the staff, because the staff doesn't necessarily trust them. They just see them as a mechanic. And they, um... anyway, they, they don't see, uh, oftentimes, you have, it that manifests itself in high turnover, manifests itself in more customer complaints, and manifests itself in, um, uh, a disengaged, disinterested staff. All of those things, just by having that leader.
And I've seen it happen because we've had locations that have had problems in the past. And oftentimes what you get is, you blame it on, "Oh, it's a different demographic. It's a different neighborhood. Uh, people that live in this part of town, don't behave a certain way and that's why we're seeing these kinds of issues," and so on. Suddenly we would change managers and all that changes. Suddenly, like, everything settles down and becomes very, you know, normal. Um, and then, well, that's just a temporary thing, you know, maybe it's a different time of year. Maybe it's a different, you know, um, type of, uh, uh, situation and so on. Now we take that manager out again and things goes back down again. And then you put the manager back in again and things go back up again.
So we've, we've done that enough times, uh, and proven that just have by having really good mechanics in one place don't necessarily make for a, uh, an environment that is positive. That sometimes you really, that person, that individual leader is really, really significant. Uh, so I've, I've come to change my mind.
I read years ago, a book called the E-Myth, uh, by. Uh, something Gerber. And, um, the, the writer writes about, um, the idea that if you put enough systems in place, you can pretty much put anybody there. And a mediocre person can do a great job just by having the right system. I think that works when you're dealing with, uh, non-leadership roles, maybe. Um, where you have like, uh, but you know, I mean every role should have some leadership element in it. But, but ones that don't impact as many people, uh, you can put people in those roles and be able to teach them a system.
You know, a cook has to know how to make a hamburger. I don't care how nice he is or how good he is with other people. If he doesn't know how to, how to cook a hamburger, he's not a good cook. Um, so you need to have the steps of how to do it. So that they know how to do it. But, um, but those things don't necessarily apply when you're dealing with, uh, leadership.
Leadership is a very unique and, uh, and special calling that not everybody has.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Absolutely. Yeah. Um, when you, when you were talking, I am reminded of this ongoing, this concept of interdependence and collectivity, where it's like--
Anas Andy Shallal: Yep.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: We need each other to support each other, not just only to survive and thrive, but especially in kind of this context, like everyone has a role to play and... we need to be like, and us working together is going to be the strength of that. And one person alone can't necessarily do all of these things, which is also why it's important to have a team and folks to support you. And so I am reminded every day to be like, "Okay, Greg. You know, all of the things that you're doing and part of, where you are able to be here, and the things are able to get done.
Even if those folks are not always visible or present, but like they had a role in, um, you know, when we're thinking about food, like when I have my breakfast, I'm like, "There are farmers who picked this food, there are delivery folks who brought this from one place to another, there were folks at, uh, uh, a grocery store that stocked it."
And then, um, and so I just think about those different steps. And so I take some time during my day, uh, day literally to remember that, like... there are, there have been, or are likely multiple folks and people who allowed me to do the thing that I'm doing in that moment. And for me, that helps ground me to be like, "Okay, how do I remind myself of that interdependence and collectivity?"
Um, and then I'm also hearing -- another thing that I was reflecting on as you were talking is like, is like, there's policies, there are systems, but there's like culture. And the culture is--
Anas Andy Shallal: Right.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: -- made up by the people and the leaders. And, um, even if you have great policies and systems in place, the culture could easily shift -- based on, to your point and what I'm hearing you say -- that you kind of took for after you've kind of expanded, is like... the culture of that general manager is going to then show up in the host, and the servers, and the dishwasher, and into the other folks in the ecosystem or in your particular restaurants. And so, um, it's important to be mindful of that. At least for me, that's what I've learned, is like cul- there are many elements to that culture and yes, systems and policies are one, but the people and how they lead and support and manage is also a huge part of that.
No matter how great your systems or policies are.
Anas Andy Shallal: Absolutely, absolutely.
Because we've had situations where we've had manuals and procedures, but they're just suggestions. No one uses them really. They're just kind of like eh, you know, they work, they use them when it's convenient, not using them when it's not convenient.
And then you end up with this culture of non- accountability and it gets really, really chaotic and problematic.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So, um, balancing and trying to figure out the, the system and policies, people, managers, leaders, it's definitely important. Um, I wanna, I want to shift us a little bit and -- if that's okay -- and want to talk with you a little bit about, you know, I know, um, I remember when you ran to be the mayor of D.C., I can see from your ongoing, um, comment, commentary on Twitter, um, and even just how I see you show up in the different campaigns and initiatives and organizations that you are a part of, especially that support and lift up, um, marginalized communities. How have you integrated your perspective, your values, your, your, uh, viewpoints in the world into your business model and into your vision and how you are scaling Busboys and Poets and your other leadership roles?
Anas Andy Shallal: Well, it starts with the vision right? I mean, uh, you know, our, our business statement kind of says it all. You know, uh, and it really does... everything that we do, everything that we decide on, on doing has to fit that vision statement. And if it doesn't fit that vision statement, then we have to make sure that we, uh, we change it, uh, that we, we assess it, that we realign it, uh, to make it work.
So it's, it's, um, it's, it's a constant, um, vigilance, I think, that needs to happen. And we try to do the best we can to make sure that that vision statement is adhered to, uh, across the board.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Got it. Um, throughout your career, was there, did you ever fear being too vocal? Or fear that you were sharing something that may, you know, ruffle feathers -- and especially as it related to kind of growing your business?
Anas Andy Shallal: Yeah. I mean, have I been concerned? Yes. Have I stopped from doing it? No. Uh, you know, I think, I think there's, there are, there are some things that you, um, you know, want to say we've, we've gotten in trouble for. You know, during the Trump administration, we were heavily audited and heavily targeted, uh, for many, many months. Uh, which were very costly. You know, it requires you a lot of time, a lot of effort, lawyers, uh, accountants, and so on and so forth.
Uh, I think largely due to our political stance. Now, no, one's going to tell you that's why they targeted you. But you know, when we are speaking out against immigration policy, when we are, uh, at the leadership of, uh, closing down all of our restaurants on Immigration Day, uh, when that happened, when, uh, the Trump administration was going full-throttle against everybody else that not, uh, you know, already in America. Um, and it became -- it became really problematic, being an immigrant myself, I felt an obligation to speak out. And, to take a leadership role in making sure that those types of things don't go unchecked. So we were part of a much larger movement, to say immigrants matter. And people that are coming from different parts of the world is what makes America great in our opinion. Not by isolating ourselves, and, you know, talking nonsense about making America great "again." So I think that's the kind of stuff that sometimes gets us in trouble, but I've never really shied away from it. I just don't, you know for me, it's like, "my business, my life." and I don't, I don't have like, this, this double life that I have to, act a certain way at work and act a different way outside of work.
I feel like that's, that's why I think I enjoy what I do, is because it really is an extension of me. and I don't want to change that. And if it gets to the point where my politics are going to, uh, affect the business in such a way, it's time for me to just call it off then.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mhmm, I appreciate that because I feel like what I'm getting, what I'm taking from you is like that is, you've integrated it from the beginning with the vision. And that is also how you bring your full self into, into any space you're in, including your business.
Anas Andy Shallal: And, um, I've been an activist all my life, so it's not like, you know, I opened a restaurant and said, "Hmm, maybe I should be an activist and create a business model around it."
It's not that. I've been an activist all my life. I've always wanted to have places like this. Uh, I remember, you know, I was the co-chair of the Jerry Brown campaign who ran for president back in '92. And, um, I remember trying to find a place for people to meet. It ended up to be the basement of my house. I lived in Virginia at the time, and that was the meeting place, 24/7. People coming in and out all the time. And I thought, "Wouldn't it be nice if you have some sort of public space where people come and gather and be able to, um, you know, find others of like-mind and, uh, share ideas and, uh, meet before a rally, and so on and so forth?" Uh, those types of places were non-existent.
Um, and, uh, you know, the best that we could do at that time was, uh, was the church basement, uh, which had, you know, had bad lighting, the food wasn't very good. You know, you couldn't drink. You know, like a lot of things were, uh, were kind of barriers, really, for folks to come from all over the place to be able to connect with each other.
I wanted a place that is like this, that connects people. Uh, so it could become an extension of my interests really, uh, to create places like this. And ever since we opened, we've had, um, activism from day one. You know, we did all kinds of campaigns from the very beginning, uh, on many, many issues, uh, even before I opened the Busboys and Poets.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Yeah. If I, if I remember correctly, part of what I understand your story, and I think one of the, the, the ways I, which I feel like at least your, your flagship location, um, and, and the U Street area was around, like, opposition to the Iraq war. Like, and that was a place where people were able to like, talk about, "What's the next action? How are we gonna, what things are we going to do?" Um, and so, yeah, I definitely, and even for myself, I know I've been to many of Busboys and Poets. There were events that were hosted or meetings with different community organizations or, um, organizers who are trying to recruit me to, to join their campaign. Um, and so, uh, I happen, I happened to be one of those people that ended up spending multiple hours, cause I would do a, uh, a meeting and then an event and then meet with friends, buy a book, maybe buy multiple books.
So I definitely was one of -- have been one of those people who have found the, uh, a deeper appreciation for the way in which you've kind of connected those different experiences, those different dots, but also to be that ongoing hub for artists and organizers and activists and writers, et cetera. So, um, so thank you.
Anas Andy Shallal: Oh yeah, absolutely.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: You know, I know part of, um, some of your recent, well recent work over the last couple of years, especially in the midst of the pandemic, um, has been around-- I know you were on the ReOpen Task Force. You, um, just been a leader just in a lot of different ways in the, uh, restaurant and service industry. Um, and I'm curious if you can just share a little bit about, um, how -- what, if anything has shifted since we've been living in a global pandemic? And, um, is there, are there any reflections as we are continuing to navigate COVID-19 that, um, you would share from your vantage point as, uh, and perspective?
Anas Andy Shallal: Uh, you know, I think, I think the service industry has made a lot of changes and, uh, some of them have been quite significant.
I think, uh, the, the idea, the, the shift in the way we interact with each other has changed. Uh, I think. Uh, the way that customers interact with, uh, with the service staff has changed. Uh, there is an accountability on both sides. It used to be... the, "the customer is always right." Uh, and we realized that that is not always true, that oftentimes, you know, it's a, it's a shared relationship.
It's a, it's not a one over the other relationship. It has to be a mutually understood relationship and give and take. And so that really has, has, has shifted. For some, it's been really kind of like, "Oh, oh that's too bad," you know? Cause it used to be the old days, you know, the customer comes in and they'd feel like a king for a couple of hours.
Well, you know what, uh, go read a fable. You know, it's not, this is not the place for you to exert your kinghood on someone else who for a couple of hours, uh, is forced to be subservient to your needs and whims. At some level, you have to have respect on both sides and understand that we're all human, uh, first and foremost. And we all have -- and need and want respect from one another.
So there has been a mutual understanding, I think, after COVID, that there is this sort of a common shared interest, and for all of us to be able to be civil to one another and respectful to one another. So that's been, I think a really interesting thing. I think also the whole idea of "work" has been redefined.
The idea of the minimum wage. The idea that, um, you know, workers have choices at this point, uh, that maybe they didn't feel they had before. So I think that that's been, that's been a shift as well. Thank you. Um, so, you know, I think, I think that there has been a lot, and I think the businesses that have been able to roll with the shifts are going to be the ones that are like, that are going to last.
Um, the ones that are going to be resistant are the ones that are probably not going to do as well, or in the long-term. Because, you know, there's, there's been, uh, a depletion of workforce, uh, in the restaurant industry, the service industry in general. And so everybody's fighting for the best and the brightest.
And of course, of course, with that, wages rise. And, um, and that's hopefully good for everyone. Uh, our customers also beginning to understand that there's no such thing as a free lunch. That, uh, you know, that if you're going to ask and demand that businesses, uh, support their staff, give them paid leave, make sure that they're well cared for, make sure they have a living wage, make sure all of these things are -- health insurance and all of that... your hamburger is going to taste -- it's, it's going to cost more. It's not okay to just demand all this and say, "Oh my God, they're, they're raising prices!" Well, you know, it... it has to come from somewhere. Um, you know. So I think oftentimes people don't recognize that, uh, a, a lot of activists, especially young activists, um, have this idea that they can ask for all, all these demands, but they can go home and act very differently.
You know, they don't have to really be the ones that, um, that are mindful of, uh, environmental issues. Right. They go and tell everybody, you have to be, you know, you have to do this and this and this. And then they go home and act very differently. But they, you know, put their air conditioning on 68 degrees and, you know, and leave, leave the windows open all night long, uh, when it's in the middle of the summer, you know?
So, I mean, those are the things that have an impact, right? So you got to put your money where your mouth is and you gotta act, as you say you do, and not, not, um, contradictory to that. So I think, I think that has been a -- there's been a shift in, in, uh, accountability, um, on all sides. I think social media has been, uh, enormously important in that shift.
Uh, you know, there's a lot -- it used to be... I'm just going to-- I was laughing. There was somebody I said, I said to them, "Now if somebody gets bad service and they don't get a tip, they could easily get videotaped. And, uh, and, and made, made into a, uh, you know, a meme." Uh, you know, where they may have just gotten bad service, you know, and complained, but it's not, it's not okay not to tip somebody.
Uh, it used to be like, I didn't have to tip you if I, if you didn't do a good job. Well, people understand tipping isn't just an option. It's also how people make a living. Um, so for you to cut somebody's living because they didn't serve you as well, seems like a harsh way to deal with someone. Um, so rather than doing that, tell them, you know, "I wish you had served me better, but here's a tip anyway, uh, because it, it, uh, I know you need it and it's part of your, uh, your income."
So I think, I think, you know, it's interesting, I don't know where all this is going to fall in place, but eventually, uh, we'll, we'll figure out a better system. The restaurant industry has always been one of the, kind of a lagging industry. It kind of is at the bottom, in many situations. We are one of the last industries that actually have a tip wage, where people will make almost nothing on their salary and yet, you know, make the tips that they need to make the difference.
Um, and for the most part, I guess it has worked in many markets -- some markets, not so much -- but I think that's bound to change. At some levels, like why don't we tip, uh, a cashier? Why don't we tip, uh, a doctor? You know, why don't we tip a, I don't know, a farmer? You know, everybody has a role. You know, we realized that we need people in the industry when COVID had hit.
God, if we didn't have people making our food and making our deliveries, I think we'd have gone insane. Right? So we can't diminish that role. We can't just say something about it, it's irrelevant or it doesn't matter. It matters a lot.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Yeah. And I'm even as you were kind of giving that example of just kind of like accountability and how folks are engaging, like, at least for me, if I know, um, that that's also another layer for me, it's like, okay, you're not, you are now not, I guess, I guess, especially earlier in the pandemic, like you are now going out when most, most folks are not going out or trying to stay in at least as much as possible. And so—
Anas Andy Shallal: Yep.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: If you are going to be out in a pandemic, and now this person has to risk their, this person is risking their life because they have to make ends meet somehow in you coming to this place. So it's like you there's even more of a reason, from at least from my vantage point. Like you should not only tip, but now you should tip a little extra because--
Anas Andy Shallal: Right, right!
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Because you want to be out in the middle of a pandemic, you are...
It's, it's, it, it requires these folks to kind of be kind of to, to, um, be at risk of their own safety and likely the safety of their, and the health of their, the people that they live with. And so, um, it's important for me. Uh, it's important to kind of just note that. And to also note, one, that's also one reason why I've been able to, um, appreciate and see kind of why you also take leadership, because I know you've been a part of active campaigns.
I know you're a part of the Restaurant Opportunity Center, and some of the efforts to like increase the minimum wage. And so, um, I know you put your money where your mouth is and, you know, provide other benefits that I, that I think that aren't necessarily traditional to others, um, um, in the, in the sector as well.
So, wanting to, to, to offer that appreciation. And thank you for being an example in that regard.
Anas Andy Shallal: Thank you.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, well, you're welcome. Um, so I have one final question for you, Andy. Um, my last question for you is, um, is there anything that you would tell the younger Andy, especially now that you've had a chance to go through these different experiences in life?
Anas Andy Shallal: Um, I would say, "Stop beating yourself up so much." I think, I think oftentimes we tend to be overly critical of ourselves and lose sight of the fact that we have these, uh, opportunities and moments of growth that oftentimes are seen as, um, really, um, moments of, of, um, sort of the downturns. And I think maybe like looking at those opportunities, I think if I'd known that I think failure is really lessons learned, in earlier life, I would have probably been able to deal with it much better than I did.
Um, and I think, I don't know. I think my younger self, I, um...
I, you know, I, I wasn't, I'm not thrilled with my younger self. I, it's not something that I like looking back just-- it's funny when a lot of people like look forward to their high school reunions or college reunions, I have absolutely no interest in going back to high school or college at anytime soon. Uh, for me, the sooner I forget about those things, the better.
Um, so I, I don't... I think... I wish I had been more present, maybe? Less anxious about what other people think of me. I think when I was younger, I think I was too concerned about what other people thought than about what I thought. And it took a while. I mean, I think a lot of people just never get there. So I'm fortunate in that I got to a point where I was like at peace with that and saying, "You know what, fuck it. I'm going to do what I want to do." Um, and, um, you know, whatever. If, if someone doesn't like it, that's their problem, not mine. And, uh, I think I wish I had been more, more, uh, not give a damn type. I was a little concerned about what other people thought. That would be what I would tell my younger self.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Wow. What a powerful way to end this episode with such, um, important jewels and pieces of wisdom for a younger Andy-- and I imagine a lot of other people, um, who, uh, would appreciate hearing that. Um, thank you again, Andy, for--
Anas Andy Shallal: Yeah, yeah, yeah!
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: --joining us on the, Be the Boss Now podcast and, um, we'll be in touch.
Anas Andy Shallal: Thank you. Thank you, Greg.
And thank you, Stephanie. I love sign language, I love sign language. Thank you, thank you.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Thank you for checking out the #BeTheBossNow Podcast with your host Gregory Allan Datu Cendana, President and Co-Founder of Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting. We believe you CAN and WILL be a stronger entrepreneur embracing fear, honoring failure, and remaining humble enough to be teachable.
Check out our book, this podcast, and other resources available for those of you current or aspiring bosses at BeTheBossNow.com. Be sure to follow Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting and myself on all major social media platforms @CSWSconsulting and @gregorycendana. More information can be found on our website at CSWSConsulting.com.
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darryn rousseau hollifield and Stephanie Chao, American Sign Language Interpreters
All my family, friends, educators, and anyone–including the naysayers–who played a role in shaping the boss I am today.
This is for you and for you and everyone with an idea of starting a business, let this be a guide, light, and motivation. We all can be the boss NOW.